May 29, 2018
FS: Frances (Nakano) Shimozaki, Rocklin, California
TC: Tilden Chao, Ithaca, New York
FS: Frances (Nakano) Shimozaki, Rocklin, California
TC: Tilden Chao, Ithaca, New York
TC: Where were you interned?
FS: My family was originally interned in Tule Lake, California.* That's where most Japanese Americans from the Sacramento area went initially. After the Loyalty Questionnaire, they segregated that camp for the people who were "undesirable." We had to move out of Tule Lake. In fact, a lot of the Shimozakis went to Tule Lake because they said "no; no." We went to Jerome, Arkansas,** but I think that was closed because it was too small and too expensive to keep going with a small population. Then we went to Gila, Arizona,*** and that's where we ended up before we moved out of the camp toward the end of the war.
***Gila, Arizona: Gila River was built in the middle of the Arizona desert, and summer temperatures topped out at a scorching 125 degrees Fahrenheit. At its peak, the camp housed 13,348 internees.
TC: You said that they moved people who were "undesirable." What constitutes someone who is undesirable?
FS: The government had this thing called the Questionnaire on Loyalty Oath that they administered. They were trying to determine if some people were willing to forego or give up their Japanese citizenship. The question was, "Do you forego all loyalty to the [Japanese] emperor?" and all that stuff, so essentially, the people who had only Japanese citizenship would be left without any kind of status if they answered "no." That's the situation that Hank's mother* was in, and her family stayed together and they all said "no; no." The first question essentially asked if you'd serve in the United States army for two years. I think the majority of people said "yes; yes" to the two questions. My family did. We left Tule Lake at that point. Hank's family first went to the Rohwer internment camp in Arkansas, so when the Loyalty Oath was administered and they said "no; no," they were moved to Tule Lake. Unfortunately, the Japanese community was divided and a lot of the people that said "yes; yes" thought that the "no; no" people were hurting their cause to be American citizens. Many were United States citizens: my Dad was born in the United States and he never considered himself Japanese--he didn't go to Japan until he was 60 or 70 years old. It's actually really unfortunate. The people who responded "no; no" were also standing up for their civil rights. They weren't seen as doing that--they were considered to be troublemakers by a lot of the Japanese Americans who said "yes; yes."
*"Hank," Henry Isamu Shimozaki, is Frances' husband. They married in the early 1960s. Eight members of the Shimozaki family were interned during World War II.
FS: My family was originally interned in Tule Lake, California.* That's where most Japanese Americans from the Sacramento area went initially. After the Loyalty Questionnaire, they segregated that camp for the people who were "undesirable." We had to move out of Tule Lake. In fact, a lot of the Shimozakis went to Tule Lake because they said "no; no." We went to Jerome, Arkansas,** but I think that was closed because it was too small and too expensive to keep going with a small population. Then we went to Gila, Arizona,*** and that's where we ended up before we moved out of the camp toward the end of the war.
***Gila, Arizona: Gila River was built in the middle of the Arizona desert, and summer temperatures topped out at a scorching 125 degrees Fahrenheit. At its peak, the camp housed 13,348 internees.
TC: You said that they moved people who were "undesirable." What constitutes someone who is undesirable?
FS: The government had this thing called the Questionnaire on Loyalty Oath that they administered. They were trying to determine if some people were willing to forego or give up their Japanese citizenship. The question was, "Do you forego all loyalty to the [Japanese] emperor?" and all that stuff, so essentially, the people who had only Japanese citizenship would be left without any kind of status if they answered "no." That's the situation that Hank's mother* was in, and her family stayed together and they all said "no; no." The first question essentially asked if you'd serve in the United States army for two years. I think the majority of people said "yes; yes" to the two questions. My family did. We left Tule Lake at that point. Hank's family first went to the Rohwer internment camp in Arkansas, so when the Loyalty Oath was administered and they said "no; no," they were moved to Tule Lake. Unfortunately, the Japanese community was divided and a lot of the people that said "yes; yes" thought that the "no; no" people were hurting their cause to be American citizens. Many were United States citizens: my Dad was born in the United States and he never considered himself Japanese--he didn't go to Japan until he was 60 or 70 years old. It's actually really unfortunate. The people who responded "no; no" were also standing up for their civil rights. They weren't seen as doing that--they were considered to be troublemakers by a lot of the Japanese Americans who said "yes; yes."
*"Hank," Henry Isamu Shimozaki, is Frances' husband. They married in the early 1960s. Eight members of the Shimozaki family were interned during World War II.
The 1943 Loyalty Oath administered by the United States government. These forms helped the government separate the "desirable" from the "undesirable." Undesirables, like Hank's family, were sent to Tule Lake, California. (1)
TC: How old were you when you were interned?
FS: Three. I don't remember a lot, and I think that we left camp when I was five. That's because I remember starting kindergarten in New Jersey.
TC: Do you remember the land on which you were interned?
FS: I don't really remember, but I might remember from having seen pictures. I remember how the windstorms were, especially in the desert. The sand would blow in your face, and actually, it would hurt. The sand would also blow into your barracks, and there were all kinds of holes in the walls. People used to get can lids and nail them on the holes in the barracks to keep out the wind and sand. I think that was at Gila where I have those memories because I was older then. Even after the war, many of our parents didn't talk about what happened.
TC: Do you remember how United States officials treated you and your family in the camp?
FS: I don't. I remember some of our teachers and I remember walking with some of my cousins to school. Some teachers were Japanese-American, and some were Caucasian. I know in some situations like in Arkansas, the government paid teachers so much more than the [local] school district did. The people in those communities were really angry because the teachers would teach Japanese kids and make more money doing that. That area was very poor. There are some stories where Uncle Sam, the oldest [of six Shimozaki sons], was working on a camp which had an abundant crop of watermelon. They got permission to bring some watermelon to one of the towns, and the locals were very happy--they were much happier after that. So, there was somebody in the family that did something good to alleviate the bad feelings.
TC: Even from a young age, did internment seem wrong to you? When did it begin to seem wrong?
FS: No. It wasn't until I was much older. I remember--this was one of the most shameful things I've ever done--I think we were talking about camp. I was maybe 12 or 13. I was one of those kids, and I said to my Dad, "How could you do that? How could you just go into camp? Why didn't you fight?" And he looked at me, and he was so crushed. I felt so bad after I realized later, what could he have done? They didn't have very many options. So I apologized to him.
TC: Culturally, did you notice any type of bond between internees? Did you notice any revival of strength of Japanese culture after Japanese internment?
FS: I don't think so. The community was still close, but many wanted to be and be seen as Americans. My mom encouraged me to join the Scouts, and traditionally American things like that. During the war, the United States had a labor shortage in interment camp, so Mr. Seabrook* from New Jersey started to recruit people from the camps to work on his huge farm. War was still going on, so workers would pack food and sell it to the military. We lived in brick barracks. It was very much like being in camp again with mostly Japanese-American residents. It was very much a company town; the company had their own school and own store and stuff like that. It was different. The Japanese-American community did try to maintain its customs. There was no Buddhist church, so I went to a Christian church. I thought that was sort of strange. It was interesting. It was a pretty close-knit community because we didn't interact with very many other ethnic groups. We hardly went into town--it was about 10 minutes away. There were a few Caucasian kids that went to our school, and they were mostly kids of the officials of the company. After internment, my Dad didn't want to return to California. They owned a store in Isleton. They had it for 20 years before the war started. They lost everything because they couldn't sell any of their merchandise at a fair price. They felt that they didn't have anything to come back to except for the friends and family who decided to return.
*By 1947, about 2,500 Japanese Americans lived in Seabrook, New Jersey, where Seabrook Farms Company was based. Because of extreme labor shortages caused by war, Seabrook's company actively recruited alienated and displaced workers from all over the world. Japanese Americans, just coming out of internment camps with no homes and no jobs, were the primary targets. Interestingly enough, Seabrook became a vibrant multi-cultural community. Japanese Americans, Japanese Peruvians, war refugees from Europe, African Americans, Appalachian migrants, and Caribbean workers came to labor side by side.
TC: Do you feel that President Roosevelt was responsible for internment?
FS: I do. He actually did something that was unconstitutional, and that was really upsetting. And I think he knew it, and I know Eleanor knew it. She was a strong person in that family. I think Roosevelt could have been a better President, but it must be hard to run a country during wartime.
TC: Did President Roosevelt's actions impact your voting record once you could vote? Did he discredit Democrats?
FS: Well, I knew that everybody was not perfect. I voted almost strictly Democratic. They were a better choice than the Republicans. I don't think that anyone is perfect, especially politicians.
TC: Could you elaborate a little more on the property loss that your family experienced?
FS: When my grandfather came over from Japan, I think he had money because many people who came over had to do menial agricultural labor to buy property and goods. My grandfather owned a store almost right away. It was a little store on the California Delta, in Isleton's Japantown. My sister and I designed a plaque* addressing the original store. My dad loved Isleton. He grew up there and loved the community, he went to segregated schools until he went to high school. It's really interesting that they were mostly in the Japanese-American community. When he interacted with white kids at high school--he and all his brothers were jocks--they were very short but they all played sports, especially basketball and baseball. My dad was captain of two varsity teams. I don't know who chose him, if it was the kids or the coaches. He was very proud of his accomplishments. He was very happy that he got to do that. So even when we go into Isleton today we meet older people who might ask, "Did your family come from here?" We tell them our family name [Nakano], and they know about my father and the uncles and say they were really good at sports. And this is 60, 70 years later? It's really amazing. He loved the town. He loved the river and the lifestyle. When my parents got married and went to live in the house--it was part of the store. The front was the store and the back was living quarters. When he went to camp, he wasn't a negative person, but I think it really hurt. I think he felt betrayed.
*The K. Nakano Co. Dry Goods & Shoes Store is located at 27 Main Street in Isleton, California. Frances and her sister have since helped to restore the store sign and wrote an accompanying plaque.
The plaque reads: "K. NAKANO CO. STORE, ESTABLISHED 1922, CLOSED 1942. This dry goods store was owned by Kumataro & Rika Nakano in Isleton's thriving Japantown. The store was closed in 1942 when Executive Order 9066 mandated the incarceration of 110,000 Japanese on the West Coast in isolated internment camps. Most were American citizens."
FS: Three. I don't remember a lot, and I think that we left camp when I was five. That's because I remember starting kindergarten in New Jersey.
TC: Do you remember the land on which you were interned?
FS: I don't really remember, but I might remember from having seen pictures. I remember how the windstorms were, especially in the desert. The sand would blow in your face, and actually, it would hurt. The sand would also blow into your barracks, and there were all kinds of holes in the walls. People used to get can lids and nail them on the holes in the barracks to keep out the wind and sand. I think that was at Gila where I have those memories because I was older then. Even after the war, many of our parents didn't talk about what happened.
TC: Do you remember how United States officials treated you and your family in the camp?
FS: I don't. I remember some of our teachers and I remember walking with some of my cousins to school. Some teachers were Japanese-American, and some were Caucasian. I know in some situations like in Arkansas, the government paid teachers so much more than the [local] school district did. The people in those communities were really angry because the teachers would teach Japanese kids and make more money doing that. That area was very poor. There are some stories where Uncle Sam, the oldest [of six Shimozaki sons], was working on a camp which had an abundant crop of watermelon. They got permission to bring some watermelon to one of the towns, and the locals were very happy--they were much happier after that. So, there was somebody in the family that did something good to alleviate the bad feelings.
TC: Even from a young age, did internment seem wrong to you? When did it begin to seem wrong?
FS: No. It wasn't until I was much older. I remember--this was one of the most shameful things I've ever done--I think we were talking about camp. I was maybe 12 or 13. I was one of those kids, and I said to my Dad, "How could you do that? How could you just go into camp? Why didn't you fight?" And he looked at me, and he was so crushed. I felt so bad after I realized later, what could he have done? They didn't have very many options. So I apologized to him.
TC: Culturally, did you notice any type of bond between internees? Did you notice any revival of strength of Japanese culture after Japanese internment?
FS: I don't think so. The community was still close, but many wanted to be and be seen as Americans. My mom encouraged me to join the Scouts, and traditionally American things like that. During the war, the United States had a labor shortage in interment camp, so Mr. Seabrook* from New Jersey started to recruit people from the camps to work on his huge farm. War was still going on, so workers would pack food and sell it to the military. We lived in brick barracks. It was very much like being in camp again with mostly Japanese-American residents. It was very much a company town; the company had their own school and own store and stuff like that. It was different. The Japanese-American community did try to maintain its customs. There was no Buddhist church, so I went to a Christian church. I thought that was sort of strange. It was interesting. It was a pretty close-knit community because we didn't interact with very many other ethnic groups. We hardly went into town--it was about 10 minutes away. There were a few Caucasian kids that went to our school, and they were mostly kids of the officials of the company. After internment, my Dad didn't want to return to California. They owned a store in Isleton. They had it for 20 years before the war started. They lost everything because they couldn't sell any of their merchandise at a fair price. They felt that they didn't have anything to come back to except for the friends and family who decided to return.
*By 1947, about 2,500 Japanese Americans lived in Seabrook, New Jersey, where Seabrook Farms Company was based. Because of extreme labor shortages caused by war, Seabrook's company actively recruited alienated and displaced workers from all over the world. Japanese Americans, just coming out of internment camps with no homes and no jobs, were the primary targets. Interestingly enough, Seabrook became a vibrant multi-cultural community. Japanese Americans, Japanese Peruvians, war refugees from Europe, African Americans, Appalachian migrants, and Caribbean workers came to labor side by side.
TC: Do you feel that President Roosevelt was responsible for internment?
FS: I do. He actually did something that was unconstitutional, and that was really upsetting. And I think he knew it, and I know Eleanor knew it. She was a strong person in that family. I think Roosevelt could have been a better President, but it must be hard to run a country during wartime.
TC: Did President Roosevelt's actions impact your voting record once you could vote? Did he discredit Democrats?
FS: Well, I knew that everybody was not perfect. I voted almost strictly Democratic. They were a better choice than the Republicans. I don't think that anyone is perfect, especially politicians.
TC: Could you elaborate a little more on the property loss that your family experienced?
FS: When my grandfather came over from Japan, I think he had money because many people who came over had to do menial agricultural labor to buy property and goods. My grandfather owned a store almost right away. It was a little store on the California Delta, in Isleton's Japantown. My sister and I designed a plaque* addressing the original store. My dad loved Isleton. He grew up there and loved the community, he went to segregated schools until he went to high school. It's really interesting that they were mostly in the Japanese-American community. When he interacted with white kids at high school--he and all his brothers were jocks--they were very short but they all played sports, especially basketball and baseball. My dad was captain of two varsity teams. I don't know who chose him, if it was the kids or the coaches. He was very proud of his accomplishments. He was very happy that he got to do that. So even when we go into Isleton today we meet older people who might ask, "Did your family come from here?" We tell them our family name [Nakano], and they know about my father and the uncles and say they were really good at sports. And this is 60, 70 years later? It's really amazing. He loved the town. He loved the river and the lifestyle. When my parents got married and went to live in the house--it was part of the store. The front was the store and the back was living quarters. When he went to camp, he wasn't a negative person, but I think it really hurt. I think he felt betrayed.
*The K. Nakano Co. Dry Goods & Shoes Store is located at 27 Main Street in Isleton, California. Frances and her sister have since helped to restore the store sign and wrote an accompanying plaque.
The plaque reads: "K. NAKANO CO. STORE, ESTABLISHED 1922, CLOSED 1942. This dry goods store was owned by Kumataro & Rika Nakano in Isleton's thriving Japantown. The store was closed in 1942 when Executive Order 9066 mandated the incarceration of 110,000 Japanese on the West Coast in isolated internment camps. Most were American citizens."
This is the restored storefront of the K. Nakano Co. Dry Goods & Shoes store in Isleton, California. Frances' family lost this store when they were interned during World War II.
This is the plaque that Frances and her sister created in memory of the store.
This was Isleton's local adult Japanese-American baseball team. Lawrernce Nakano (far left) was only 14 years old in this photo. In spite of his relative youth and small stature, he was an exceptional athlete. (2)
TC: Did you personally receive reparations in 1988?
FS: Yes. Anyone who was in camp and was still alive--the older people didn't get paid [almost 50 years later after interment, reparations were given out], because if they had passed on, they didn't get paid. I told a couple people that I wouldn't take the money because I didn't feel like I suffered in camp. They asked, "Why not? That's really stupid. Take it! They owe it to someone, so go and do something with it." And I said, "Well, that's a good idea." So I went and gave some of the money to our public library to enhance its collection of Japanese American history, civil rights, internment, and Constitution in different formats. DVDs, books, children's books, novels, anything. It was about $2,500 or something like that. The library wanted me to choose the books, and that's when I really started getting interested in interment. They said, "You know what you want in there, and we trust your judgment." There was another Japanese-American lady who was a librarian there who later became my good friend. She said, "I don't want to do anything with that. I just want to forget about all that--the camp and internment. It's over." And I said, "Laura, you know, if people are interested, they need to be able to look things up and have the resources." And she said, "Well, okay. I'll help you, but I don't believe in that. I think you should just forget it." It turns out that working on this project she got completely turned around. It was really amazing. She would go out and talk to schoolchildren and others. The library said they just wanted to highlight our collection so people at other libraries and schools knew about it, and they could ask us to use our collection. We distributed our anthologies to schools, libraries, and other organizations like that. It was a very gratifying project because I felt like I did good with some of the money that I received. I think a lot of people did things like that. They wanted to give back.
It's amazing how much people don't know about internment, even now. So, you know, that's how my interest got started. I got much more interested because we looked at all these materials. Not because we read them all, but what it covered, and how it was written. My uncle was teaching ethnic studies at San Francisco State, and he helped me. My niece was majoring in ethnic studies at Berkeley, so she helped me also. There is a Japanese-American Museum in San Jose and I went to talk to them. I had a salary for doing all of this, which was really amazing, because it was on their time, not mine. It was something that was really involving, and I'm glad I did it. I feel like I know some things, but not everything. You think all the stories are somewhat the same, but everyone has something different to say. It's really interesting. It's over but it could happen again. People don't learn, I guess. What we're doing to Muslims and all these people is absolutely wrong. We don't want something that we went through to happen to anyone else.
TC: Asians weren't always at the top of society socially and economically. I've always wondered how we got here--if you look at the numbers, Asians are the most privileged in terms of income and property ownership. Do you have any idea about how Asians got here? Especially after everything that beat them down, like the Exclusion Act of 1882, the Quota Act of 1924, and internment.
FS: Well one thing, I think, is that people who immigrate to this country are different. Some of them don't have a choice. But the people that do it voluntarily have a positive feeling about what they're going to accomplish. People who immigrate are often strong. I think they have to be. They have a chance here like they didn't have in Japan. I think that my grandfather--I'm not quite sure--I think he was one of the younger kids and he wasn't going to inherit anything. I have a feeling his family said, "Here's a few thousand dollars--go make a life for yourself in America, because you're going to struggle here." He didn't have to work super hard like other immigrants did. I think he was more privileged. Like all Japanese-American families I know, they want their kids to go to college. It's a given. My Jewish friends say, "We are close to Japanese Americans, because we have the same respect for education and doing something for other people." The other thing, too, is that you had to shine in my family. I think that to do credit to the family, you had to shine. Sometimes it's about the family and the community, not about you. There's some pressure on some people to excel. And in some ways it's good, and in some ways it's not. But in many ways, I think that the kids are under a lot of pressure, especially if they were a kid that was going to make it in college. I was lucky that I didn't have any brothers. Because in those days, they didn't invest in girls very much, because they just assumed girls would get married and have kids. I think certain people came here with dreams, and there was a community that supported those dreams.
TC: Have you started to forgive? When did it start?
FS: Yes. I'm not really sure when it happened. Hank is still angry about it. I'm not real angry, but I've not forgiven really, you know. I'm getting better because--I think it's my personal life. I'm getting older, and I don't want to carry anger in my heart. It doesn't do me any good, unless I do something constructive with the anger. I had a really good African-American friend named Fred. Fred and I were friends before Hank and I even knew each other. We would always go places, and he would say, "Everyone is looking at us." And I'd say, "Fred, what are you talking about? You're so paranoid." And he'd say, "Fran, you are so oblivious!" Laughs. I said, "You have to feel so sorry for these biased people that expend so much energy on being angry all the time!" And he said, "You are one weird chick." So that's when I was 17 or 18, but I think he came around to that later. He told me when we were 40 or something like that he was getting to my point.
TC: Are you proud to be American?
FS: Yes. I think I have to say yes. I don't like all the nationalism and stuff, but I think we have good opportunities and freedoms for people, and I think that really is evident when we visit other countries. We think, "Oh my gosh! This would not happen in America." But then again, there are a lot of things that happen here that wouldn't happen anywhere else. In other places, it's a struggle to get educated. I'm proud to be an American.
TC: Do you feel appreciated as an American? When people learn that you were interned, do they begin to appreciate you more?
FS: I don't know. I think so. Maybe not me as much as my family. We went through a lot. We didn't have very many choices. Most Japanese Americans thought that the "no; no" people were awful because they were jeopardizing their opportunities to be Americans. We have a friend that was in a concentration camp. He went to Dachau when he was very young, in his teens. He was a Hungarian Jew and he was very talented. He saw the horrors, and he is now the kindest, most noble person. To me, he's like a saint. He has such compassion for other people, and I think that people who go through all that and come out whole, kind, and even successful, you have to respect them. So yes, I think they respect my family and our culture. I don't know if they especially respect me for it, because I was so unaware about everything at that time. When my family came back from camp, with people saying "No Japs Wanted" and all that kind of stuff, it was hard. At that time, the Japanese military was running around Asia doing terrible things, so it seemed possible that people in the United States would take it out on the Japanese. It's sad when you hear those stories. You have to respect them.
TC: I heard you can tell a good story about your brother-in-law Sam Shimozaki and the internees at the Rohwer Center in Arkansas. Could you tell me this story?
FS: It doesn't have anything to do with internment. Laughs. Okay. So Hank knew that he was born at home. I think all the kids were born at home--none of them were born at the hospital. Until 25 years ago, he thought that his mother had a midwife. It turns out that Sam, when he was twelve years old--a child--was the midwife when Hank was born. It was just amazing! It was a legend to Sam's family then. We didn't know anything about it until a few years ago.
TC: Are you currently a member of any organization of Japanese internment survivors?
FS: No, I'm not. I don't belong to any group that's concentrating on internment.
TC: Do you know if something like that exists?
FS: I'm sure there are. We worked with a woman in Isleton. Did I tell you about the store? She's trying to preserve Japanese history in that town. She's very dynamic and excited about doing this, so she's building an Asian memorial garden for the Chinese, Japanese, a few Filipinos. I don't know if Filipinos actually settled in Isleton. There were Japantowns and Chinatowns, and the Filipinos were migrant laborers. Filipinos also couldn't marry--the United States forbade Filipino women to come over. So, they were mostly men, and they didn't establish homes or anything like that. So the garden doesn't include much Filipino history. We're contributing to that project, and she's got this something called Delta Cultural Education--to speak about internment. She has some speakers. We aren't directly involved in it but she thinks of us as one of her supporters.
TC: What do you think the United States can learn now from internment? With the possible--well, actual "ban" on immigration from certain countries--as well as turning on each other, what should we take back from internment?
FS: If we do it again, it's going to be ugly. Really, really ugly. I think a lot of people are aware how bad that was. Well, not how bad the situation was physically, but how bad it was just to do that to people without due process. And these were mostly citizens. I think there would be an uproar. That's where I'm not so proud to be an American. Now, people aren't going to go meekly, or resignedly to camp. They won't say, "oh, we'll be okay in the end." It's so long. It's so long. If we don't see that as a country, I think we're lost.
TC: I actually gave a speech in English class today about why people need to teach about internment more. How do you think we should go about teaching it? It's already underrepresented in curricula all across the country. In comparison to things that are far less significant, it's terribly underrepresented, even today. What can people do to learn about it?
FS: A lot of the people who have the stories are no longer with us. A lot of them didn't want to tell the stories before they died, and a lot of us didn't listen when they tried. I think that when people talk to you about this, you can tell them what you know. Some of those personal stories are really gripping. Hank's mother burned her photographs. Her records. Her books. Anything that had to do with Japan, because when the FBI was coming around, she was afraid that the family would be imprisoned. A real prison. Hank saw his mom throw all that stuff in the fire. I'm sure she was crying. Can you imagine throwing those photographs--family photographs, albums and books, and all that--it sounds awful. The personal stories are important. I think it's a bigger thing you're asking about, like the politics, racism, hatred, and the fear? The FBI took a lot of the important members of the community, like businessmen, reverends, and teachers. Since the Japanese generations were so distinct, it wasn't a blending of skill. You had the Issei (first generation), the Nisei (second generation), the Sansei (third generation), and they took a lot of the Issei people away. That left the Nisei, who were young. My Dad was a Nisei, maybe 28 or 30. These were the people who were to be our leaders, because the elderly leaders were taken away because they had connections to Japan.
FS: Yes. Anyone who was in camp and was still alive--the older people didn't get paid [almost 50 years later after interment, reparations were given out], because if they had passed on, they didn't get paid. I told a couple people that I wouldn't take the money because I didn't feel like I suffered in camp. They asked, "Why not? That's really stupid. Take it! They owe it to someone, so go and do something with it." And I said, "Well, that's a good idea." So I went and gave some of the money to our public library to enhance its collection of Japanese American history, civil rights, internment, and Constitution in different formats. DVDs, books, children's books, novels, anything. It was about $2,500 or something like that. The library wanted me to choose the books, and that's when I really started getting interested in interment. They said, "You know what you want in there, and we trust your judgment." There was another Japanese-American lady who was a librarian there who later became my good friend. She said, "I don't want to do anything with that. I just want to forget about all that--the camp and internment. It's over." And I said, "Laura, you know, if people are interested, they need to be able to look things up and have the resources." And she said, "Well, okay. I'll help you, but I don't believe in that. I think you should just forget it." It turns out that working on this project she got completely turned around. It was really amazing. She would go out and talk to schoolchildren and others. The library said they just wanted to highlight our collection so people at other libraries and schools knew about it, and they could ask us to use our collection. We distributed our anthologies to schools, libraries, and other organizations like that. It was a very gratifying project because I felt like I did good with some of the money that I received. I think a lot of people did things like that. They wanted to give back.
It's amazing how much people don't know about internment, even now. So, you know, that's how my interest got started. I got much more interested because we looked at all these materials. Not because we read them all, but what it covered, and how it was written. My uncle was teaching ethnic studies at San Francisco State, and he helped me. My niece was majoring in ethnic studies at Berkeley, so she helped me also. There is a Japanese-American Museum in San Jose and I went to talk to them. I had a salary for doing all of this, which was really amazing, because it was on their time, not mine. It was something that was really involving, and I'm glad I did it. I feel like I know some things, but not everything. You think all the stories are somewhat the same, but everyone has something different to say. It's really interesting. It's over but it could happen again. People don't learn, I guess. What we're doing to Muslims and all these people is absolutely wrong. We don't want something that we went through to happen to anyone else.
TC: Asians weren't always at the top of society socially and economically. I've always wondered how we got here--if you look at the numbers, Asians are the most privileged in terms of income and property ownership. Do you have any idea about how Asians got here? Especially after everything that beat them down, like the Exclusion Act of 1882, the Quota Act of 1924, and internment.
FS: Well one thing, I think, is that people who immigrate to this country are different. Some of them don't have a choice. But the people that do it voluntarily have a positive feeling about what they're going to accomplish. People who immigrate are often strong. I think they have to be. They have a chance here like they didn't have in Japan. I think that my grandfather--I'm not quite sure--I think he was one of the younger kids and he wasn't going to inherit anything. I have a feeling his family said, "Here's a few thousand dollars--go make a life for yourself in America, because you're going to struggle here." He didn't have to work super hard like other immigrants did. I think he was more privileged. Like all Japanese-American families I know, they want their kids to go to college. It's a given. My Jewish friends say, "We are close to Japanese Americans, because we have the same respect for education and doing something for other people." The other thing, too, is that you had to shine in my family. I think that to do credit to the family, you had to shine. Sometimes it's about the family and the community, not about you. There's some pressure on some people to excel. And in some ways it's good, and in some ways it's not. But in many ways, I think that the kids are under a lot of pressure, especially if they were a kid that was going to make it in college. I was lucky that I didn't have any brothers. Because in those days, they didn't invest in girls very much, because they just assumed girls would get married and have kids. I think certain people came here with dreams, and there was a community that supported those dreams.
TC: Have you started to forgive? When did it start?
FS: Yes. I'm not really sure when it happened. Hank is still angry about it. I'm not real angry, but I've not forgiven really, you know. I'm getting better because--I think it's my personal life. I'm getting older, and I don't want to carry anger in my heart. It doesn't do me any good, unless I do something constructive with the anger. I had a really good African-American friend named Fred. Fred and I were friends before Hank and I even knew each other. We would always go places, and he would say, "Everyone is looking at us." And I'd say, "Fred, what are you talking about? You're so paranoid." And he'd say, "Fran, you are so oblivious!" Laughs. I said, "You have to feel so sorry for these biased people that expend so much energy on being angry all the time!" And he said, "You are one weird chick." So that's when I was 17 or 18, but I think he came around to that later. He told me when we were 40 or something like that he was getting to my point.
TC: Are you proud to be American?
FS: Yes. I think I have to say yes. I don't like all the nationalism and stuff, but I think we have good opportunities and freedoms for people, and I think that really is evident when we visit other countries. We think, "Oh my gosh! This would not happen in America." But then again, there are a lot of things that happen here that wouldn't happen anywhere else. In other places, it's a struggle to get educated. I'm proud to be an American.
TC: Do you feel appreciated as an American? When people learn that you were interned, do they begin to appreciate you more?
FS: I don't know. I think so. Maybe not me as much as my family. We went through a lot. We didn't have very many choices. Most Japanese Americans thought that the "no; no" people were awful because they were jeopardizing their opportunities to be Americans. We have a friend that was in a concentration camp. He went to Dachau when he was very young, in his teens. He was a Hungarian Jew and he was very talented. He saw the horrors, and he is now the kindest, most noble person. To me, he's like a saint. He has such compassion for other people, and I think that people who go through all that and come out whole, kind, and even successful, you have to respect them. So yes, I think they respect my family and our culture. I don't know if they especially respect me for it, because I was so unaware about everything at that time. When my family came back from camp, with people saying "No Japs Wanted" and all that kind of stuff, it was hard. At that time, the Japanese military was running around Asia doing terrible things, so it seemed possible that people in the United States would take it out on the Japanese. It's sad when you hear those stories. You have to respect them.
TC: I heard you can tell a good story about your brother-in-law Sam Shimozaki and the internees at the Rohwer Center in Arkansas. Could you tell me this story?
FS: It doesn't have anything to do with internment. Laughs. Okay. So Hank knew that he was born at home. I think all the kids were born at home--none of them were born at the hospital. Until 25 years ago, he thought that his mother had a midwife. It turns out that Sam, when he was twelve years old--a child--was the midwife when Hank was born. It was just amazing! It was a legend to Sam's family then. We didn't know anything about it until a few years ago.
TC: Are you currently a member of any organization of Japanese internment survivors?
FS: No, I'm not. I don't belong to any group that's concentrating on internment.
TC: Do you know if something like that exists?
FS: I'm sure there are. We worked with a woman in Isleton. Did I tell you about the store? She's trying to preserve Japanese history in that town. She's very dynamic and excited about doing this, so she's building an Asian memorial garden for the Chinese, Japanese, a few Filipinos. I don't know if Filipinos actually settled in Isleton. There were Japantowns and Chinatowns, and the Filipinos were migrant laborers. Filipinos also couldn't marry--the United States forbade Filipino women to come over. So, they were mostly men, and they didn't establish homes or anything like that. So the garden doesn't include much Filipino history. We're contributing to that project, and she's got this something called Delta Cultural Education--to speak about internment. She has some speakers. We aren't directly involved in it but she thinks of us as one of her supporters.
TC: What do you think the United States can learn now from internment? With the possible--well, actual "ban" on immigration from certain countries--as well as turning on each other, what should we take back from internment?
FS: If we do it again, it's going to be ugly. Really, really ugly. I think a lot of people are aware how bad that was. Well, not how bad the situation was physically, but how bad it was just to do that to people without due process. And these were mostly citizens. I think there would be an uproar. That's where I'm not so proud to be an American. Now, people aren't going to go meekly, or resignedly to camp. They won't say, "oh, we'll be okay in the end." It's so long. It's so long. If we don't see that as a country, I think we're lost.
TC: I actually gave a speech in English class today about why people need to teach about internment more. How do you think we should go about teaching it? It's already underrepresented in curricula all across the country. In comparison to things that are far less significant, it's terribly underrepresented, even today. What can people do to learn about it?
FS: A lot of the people who have the stories are no longer with us. A lot of them didn't want to tell the stories before they died, and a lot of us didn't listen when they tried. I think that when people talk to you about this, you can tell them what you know. Some of those personal stories are really gripping. Hank's mother burned her photographs. Her records. Her books. Anything that had to do with Japan, because when the FBI was coming around, she was afraid that the family would be imprisoned. A real prison. Hank saw his mom throw all that stuff in the fire. I'm sure she was crying. Can you imagine throwing those photographs--family photographs, albums and books, and all that--it sounds awful. The personal stories are important. I think it's a bigger thing you're asking about, like the politics, racism, hatred, and the fear? The FBI took a lot of the important members of the community, like businessmen, reverends, and teachers. Since the Japanese generations were so distinct, it wasn't a blending of skill. You had the Issei (first generation), the Nisei (second generation), the Sansei (third generation), and they took a lot of the Issei people away. That left the Nisei, who were young. My Dad was a Nisei, maybe 28 or 30. These were the people who were to be our leaders, because the elderly leaders were taken away because they had connections to Japan.
Hank saw his mom throw all that stuff in the fire. I'm sure she was crying. Can you imagine throwing those photographs--family photographs, albums and books, and all that?
The Nisei didn't have the same experience and knowledge. Moreover, the people who went to Tule Lake--the "no; no" people--were turned upon. That must have been horrible because they didn't want to give up their Japanese citizenship and be stateless. Have you been to the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C.?
TC: I'm not sure. There's a slim chance that I went when I was younger but I don't remember. The August after this interview, I made a special trip to the Holocaust Museum with my mother.
FS: Well, what's really impressive about it is that the Holocaust is the epitome of genocide in Western culture. But, they feature things on other genocides. They have materials on Rwanda and Cambodia. It's not just about the West. It points out that genocide and extreme injustice are universal. That made me think. We went to Cambodia, and the guide who we had was very, very angry. I think it's because he thought that we weren't willing to understand what happened to his country. We wanted to know more, and some of the people who we got close to in the group--a small group, maybe of 15--they went to go see a Cambodian author who wrote First They Killed My Father. The author went to their campus and they asked what they could do. She said just to keep telling the stories. She didn't know herself how to do it globally, or even nationally, but what she does, is that she tells her stories. It's not just the personal story. It's got other things in it too. We all read the book and talked about it online. I don't know how to approach it--I think you need to approach it a different way, not just through humanity.
TC: Well, I'm out of questions but that was wonderful. Now, I'm thinking about this and the broader picture, today. It's a difficult question of what exactly we should do to spread awareness about this. I'm glad that I know your story because I feel like I just knew my great-grandfather's, not the stories of other family members.
TC: I'm not sure. There's a slim chance that I went when I was younger but I don't remember. The August after this interview, I made a special trip to the Holocaust Museum with my mother.
FS: Well, what's really impressive about it is that the Holocaust is the epitome of genocide in Western culture. But, they feature things on other genocides. They have materials on Rwanda and Cambodia. It's not just about the West. It points out that genocide and extreme injustice are universal. That made me think. We went to Cambodia, and the guide who we had was very, very angry. I think it's because he thought that we weren't willing to understand what happened to his country. We wanted to know more, and some of the people who we got close to in the group--a small group, maybe of 15--they went to go see a Cambodian author who wrote First They Killed My Father. The author went to their campus and they asked what they could do. She said just to keep telling the stories. She didn't know herself how to do it globally, or even nationally, but what she does, is that she tells her stories. It's not just the personal story. It's got other things in it too. We all read the book and talked about it online. I don't know how to approach it--I think you need to approach it a different way, not just through humanity.
TC: Well, I'm out of questions but that was wonderful. Now, I'm thinking about this and the broader picture, today. It's a difficult question of what exactly we should do to spread awareness about this. I'm glad that I know your story because I feel like I just knew my great-grandfather's, not the stories of other family members.
Resources
(1) "The 'Loyalty Questionnaire,' 1943." Densho Encyclopedia. 17 Jul 2015, 15:44 PDT. 3 Jun 2018, 09:45 <https://encyclopedia.densho.org/sources/en-denshopd-p72-00004-1/>.
(2) Unknown. Isleton Japanese American Baseball Team. Sacramento, 5 May 1923.
(1) "The 'Loyalty Questionnaire,' 1943." Densho Encyclopedia. 17 Jul 2015, 15:44 PDT. 3 Jun 2018, 09:45 <https://encyclopedia.densho.org/sources/en-denshopd-p72-00004-1/>.
(2) Unknown. Isleton Japanese American Baseball Team. Sacramento, 5 May 1923.
Please fill out the website feedback form located on the navigation menu. Extensive feedback allows me to make this website a more useful educational tool for everyone.
